What does the visibility of LGBT*IQ have to do with leadership?

Matthias Weber: Modern management methods are based on the goal of fair treatment, appreciation and development of all employees. The fact that we are still a long way from achieving such an inclusive and diversity-oriented working and management environment is shown not only by actually measurable quotas of women, but also by the results of representative studies: LGBT*IQs too often feel discriminated against and therefore largely prefer not to come out at the workplace. And here we are on the subject of visibility: for me, visibility is one of the most effective instruments for creating acceptance. Here leadership has a relevant meaning: starting at the top of the company, as “tone from the top” and then through all management levels, the company’s claim that all employees are equally valuable, measured according to their performance and promoted according to their potential must be made clear.

You advocate a holistic Diversity Management instead of a deficit-oriented approach at antidiscrimination – what are the most important differences between these approaches?

Matthias Weber: Deficit-oriented anti-discrimination approaches are mostly aimed at individual measures. Nevertheless, the legislator aims to prohibit discrimination here. This is a statement and important as a political signal, just as it is necessary as a legal basis for those affected. But from my point of view, it is important to work to ensure that discrimination does not arise – and that is because people’s attitudes towards each other are respectful and mutually accepting. This is where holistic diversity management can offer effective strategies in both public and private companies.

In Germany, a large part of LGBT*IQ-community still decides not to come out at the workplace. What is the difference to other countries – what is done better there? What can we learn from that?

Matthias Weber: According to my opinion, this is essentially a question of culture, society and personal self-conception. In France, around 60 per cent have their coming out at the workplace, despite the fact that the fear of being disadvantaged in working life is greater. The deeply rooted urge for freedom and self-determination, no matter what the cost, is more pronounced in our neighbours than in Germany, and there are countless examples of this on both sides. Our state structure as a non-secular state also plays a not inconsiderable role in this context. All we can do is intensify our work, and the everlasting key is visibility at all levels – no matter what the cost.

What does the visibility of LGBT*IQ have to do with leadership?

Matthias Weber: Modern management methods are based on the goal of fair treatment, appreciation and development of all employees. The fact that we are still a long way from achieving such an inclusive and diversity-oriented working and management environment is shown not only by actually measurable quotas of women, but also by the results of representative studies: LGBT*IQs too often feel discriminated against and therefore largely prefer not to come out at the workplace. And here we are on the subject of visibility: for me, visibility is one of the most effective instruments for creating acceptance. Here leadership has a relevant meaning: starting at the top of the company, as “tone from the top” and then through all management levels, the company’s claim that all employees are equally valuable, measured according to their performance and promoted according to their potential must be made clear.

You advocate a holistic Diversity Management instead of a deficit-oriented approach at antidiscrimination – what are the most important differences between these approaches?

Matthias Weber: Deficit-oriented anti-discrimination approaches are mostly aimed at individual measures. Nevertheless, the legislator aims to prohibit discrimination here. This is a statement and important as a political signal, just as it is necessary as a legal basis for those affected. But from my point of view, it is important to work to ensure that discrimination does not arise – and that is because people’s attitudes towards each other are respectful and mutually accepting. This is where holistic diversity management can offer effective strategies in both public and private companies.

In Germany, a large part of LGBT*IQ-community still decides not to come out at the workplace. What is the difference to other countries – what is done better there? What can we learn from that?

Matthias Weber: According to my opinion, this is essentially a question of culture, society and personal self-conception. In France, around 60 per cent have their coming out at the workplace, despite the fact that the fear of being disadvantaged in working life is greater. The deeply rooted urge for freedom and self-determination, no matter what the cost, is more pronounced in our neighbours than in Germany, and there are countless examples of this on both sides. Our state structure as a non-secular state also plays a not inconsiderable role in this context. All we can do is intensify our work, and the everlasting key is visibility at all levels – no matter what the cost.

In simple words, Campana & Schott is providing advice to their customers on strategies to keep their finger on the pulse. What role does diversity play here?

Dr. Christophe Campana: Events such as climate change, radicalization, populism, etc. have led to the point that more and more people are concerned with meanings and values. Most people have recognized that “healthy” progress and prosperity cannot be done without moral values and sustainability. Diversity is one of these values and therefore an essential part of this overarching development. Excluding people due to their sexual orientation promotes hatred and prevents a sustainable better future for everyone. There is still a lot to be done here.

Campana & Schott received three awards as a “Great Place to Work”. The list of your commitments towards the diversity of your employees is long and you are building on long-term cooperation instead of “hire and fire”. Has the PROUT EMPLOYER cooperation been the last piece of the puzzle for an open and inclusive work environment?

Dr. Christophe Campana: There will probably never be that one last piece of the puzzle. For us, the cooperation with PROUT EMPLOYER is an important part of our commitment, which we are constantly developing further. I keep learning new things, e.g. only recently the Federal President Steinmeier made a very clear point in the context of the anti-racism riots where he said: “It is not enough to not be a racist. We have to be anti-racists.” This view also applies to me with regard to diversity and our corporate culture. I am convinced that in the future there will always be topics that managers should deal with in the interests of their company: openness and tolerance are here to stay.

What advice would you give to companies that are just starting their commitment to LGBT*IQ diversity?

Dr. Christophe Campana: At Campana & Schott there have always been employees who have lived out their homosexuality openly. Therefore, homophobia had no place in our company. For a long time, I believed that this was enough. Only later, I understood that as an entrepreneur you have to take a visible and public position on this in order to reach out to the community and signal: Live your sexuality as you want: openly or not – both are fine. But if you want to live it openly, you will not suffer any disadvantage in our company. It’s just a small step, but it does a lot – and only good.

From our experience we know that LGBT*IQ diversity has the greatest impact in a company when executives, diversity management and the company’s corporate networks regularly come together. Is that also your recipe for success?

Dr. Christophe Campana: Yes, I myself regularly meet with our LGBTQ+ network and have learned a lot from these meetings, e.g. the so-called “Monday lie”, when colleagues chat with each other during the coffee break about the last weekend and some prefer to describe their life partner as “a friend”.

I could immediately emphasize the stress associated with this white lie when my employees told me that they had felt like this for very long periods of time, sometimes even years. That is why the close exchange is so crucial: You start to better understand the problems of the community and can actually start changing things more targeted.

The last question: There are turbulent times coming for employees. Considering your commitment to diversity, how would you react to the statement that starting from now, there are more important topics than LGBT*IQ diversity?

Dr. Christophe Campana: There is a difference between the urgency and the importance. The unexpected severity with which the corona pandemic has affected all areas of life resulted in existential challenges for many companies which we will have to deal with. Just because you douse a fire in an apartment doesn’t mean that your general life in the apartment becomes unimportant. This crisis overshadows many issues, which, however, do not become irrelevant – on the contrary: I am convinced that companies with an open and appreciative culture will get through the crisis better. Diversity is an essential part of corporate identity and contributes to the performance and resilience of an organization.

Dear Dr. Campana, thank you for talking to us!

Top Employer in Germany with an extraordinary focus on employees for six years in a row, certified as a top training provider with the BEST PLACE TO LEARN label and recognised as an employer with a focus on balancing work and family. Was the REWE Group’s step to become a PROUT EMPLOYER a logical consequence? What motivated REWE to do so?

Katja Gut: It’s important to us to accommodate the interests, wishes and ideas of all our employees, regardless of gender, nationality, ethnic or social background, religion/beliefs, disability, age or sexual orientation. For us, focusing on our employees is essential, so we’re always looking to add further programs to our portfolio that could be helpful to our employees as well as potential applicants. As a PROUT EMPLOYER, we now have taken another important step, including with regards to supporting and positioning our LGBT network di.to (di.fferent to.gether).

What are your goals for the PROUT EMPLOYER cooperation?

Katja Gut: Through our network di.to, we are already actively promoting more tolerance and acceptance in the workplace, regardless of sexual orientation. We expect the PROUT EMPLOYER cooperation to add new input in this area, help extend our network and allow us to work on innovative ideas together. We are looking forward to learning new things, exchanging views with employees from other industries and sharing experiences. It’s great to meet like-minded people who support LGBT projects with the same passion we do.

Petra, you believe that the teams of the future will be mixed and diverse and you align your strategies accordingly. How is this idea being lived at REWE Group? And how can LGBT*IQ talents benefit from this philosophy?

Dr. Petra Meyer-Ochel: At REWE Group, we have mixed teams in our supermarkets as well as in our central locations – professionally, individually and with regards to the above-mentioned diversity dimensions. We are best able to solve a task when we view it from multiple perspectives. And you get these multiple perspectives when you make sure your teams are diversified. To start with, this often means more effort because all the different opinions need to be heard and exchanged. Communication is more complex as well, for example when a colleague from Retail sees things differently from someone who works in administration. But it always pays off in the end. Mixed teams frequently debate and discuss ideas that wouldn’t even have come up in a more homogeneous team. I am firmly convinced that diverse teams are more creative and make better decisions in the long term.
LGBT*IQ talents can benefit just like anyone else: openness for other people’s ideas, mutual respect and results that have been achieved together strengthen both the individual and the entire team.

Frank, in REWE’s advocacy for equal opportunities for LGBT*IQ, network and executive level work closely together, with numerous supporters in between. Is that the secret recipe for LGBT*IQ diversity within the company?

Frank Bartels: Yes, absolutely. Without all those supporters all the way up to the executive level, a network like di.to. wouldn’t have any clout whatsoever. Shortly after the network was founded in 2013, our current CEO and then-director Lionel Souque became our patron. That gave our network tremendous momentum and opened every door within the REWE Group. However, it should also be noted that acceptance within our company was – and still is – huge from the beginning and we we’ve always been able to approach various contact persons within REWE Group with our concerns at any time. It’s important to us to be able to work as transparently as possible and keep drawing attention to our campaigns and events wherever we can: for example, involving all our colleagues at REWE Group in our participation at the 2019 Cologne CSD. We don’t want to be on the sidelines, but we don’t want to be perceived as an elitist group either. So the 2019 CSD motto “Many.Together.Strong.” unwittingly became a maxim for working together at REWE Group.

From your perspectives, what advice would you give companies who are at the very beginning of their work for LGBT*IQ diversity?

Frank Bartels: As discussed, backing from an executive or from other straight allies is essential as far as LGBT networks are concerned. It gives you support, strength and self-confidence, in particular while the network is still in its infancy. Outwardly, LGBT/diversity should be an issue close to your heart, i.e. an issue that you’re comfortable promoting throughout the entire year rather than pinkwashing during Pride season. The fact that we display rainbow stickers at the entrances to our REWE and PENNY supermarkets, our toom hardware stores and our DER travel agencies positions us very credibly in this regard.

Thank you very much for the Interview!

Nikita, congratulations on you birthday also from our side. Why os a donation campaign for the PROUT AT WORK-Foundation so important right now, in times of crisis?

The answer to crises lies in togetherness – precisely because of the physical distance we experience in everyday life, it is all the more important that we move closer as a community. Of course, this also applies to our working environments. One thing is clear, we will all work together differently in the future, and the Foundation is working tirelessly to achieve this: For a working world that stands for more diversity and inclusion – detached from sexual orientation, origin, religion and identity.

What is the added value of PROUT AT WORK for you as a person?

Without the long-standing support of PROUT AT WORK, METROPride, our network for LGBT+ employees and allies, would not be where it is today. The numerous formats that PROUT AT WORK offers – from guidebooks to awareness training for all levels in the company to important networking with other company networks, politicians and associations – have enabled us to sustainably anchor the topic of LGBT+ diversity within METRO and to constantly expand it.

What can each individual do to help PROUT AT WORK not just during this time?

Everyone can use PROUT AT WORK’s analog and digital offerings to promote a discrimination-free workplace and more diversity in their company. Especially now, in a time where a lot of conversation only takes place via digital channels, an appreciative environment and mindfulness is more important than ever. In order to promote dialogue and raise awareness of these issues, the Foundation relies on all the support it can get.

Thank you for your time and the idea on Facebook!

You refer to yourself as “divers” (non-binary). What experiences have you had at Bosch with this identity?

Nils_Séline “Nica” Schächtele: DIVERSITY has been an important topic at Bosch for some years now. I have always liked the term “divers” very much because I have intersex as well as transgender-androgynous and bigender characteristics, and “divers” covers all of them. The change in the law creating the third gender option in Germany has really pushed things forward simultaneously for Bosch and for me. This year, we started to take many diverse steps together and to have lively discussions – a win-win situation for all of us. Sometimes, I jokingly refer to myself as “Bosch’s token non-binary person”. The feedback from my colleagues at the office was cautiously positive, and I got a lot of respect for being open about my gender. There was also a bit of confusion, in particular due to my two additional first names Séline and Nica. If I brought up this subject myself, the question I heard most frequently was: “Can I still call you Nils?” – which I’m OK with.

What does it mean to you to be an intersex person in our society?

Nils_Séline “Nica” Schächtele: It means belonging to a tabooed minority that is largely invisible. Sometimes I feel like we’re aliens from a Science Fiction movie: “So people like that actually exist?” “Yes, they do!!” Noticing that someone has both typically female and typically male characteristics, or finding out more details about this, or even realising that someone doesn’t fit into any traditional category, makes many people uneasy. It doesn’t match the binary view of the world that is instilled in us. It takes a lot of patience and stamina to overcome this hurdle.

When did you come out in your workplace? And what challenges did this pose at your company and with your colleagues?

Nils_Séline “Nica” Schächtele: I began to come out at Bosch during a telephone call with Olaf Schreiber – the spokesperson for the company’s LGBTIQ network RBg – and then in a telephone call about the “third gender option” with Anja Hormann from the central Bosch Diversity Team. After that, I gradually informed my direct colleagues at the office, my carpool group, my supervisor and the local HR department. A wonderful video made by colleagues for colleagues on IDAHOBIT inspired me to have my first name changed to Nils_Séline in the internal company address book. It is written with the so-called “Gender_Gap” to visualise the gender continuum between male and female. I dedicated my first blog entry in the internal network to this subject and sometimes I was moved to tears by the approval I received from all over the world. On Diversity Day, our office organised a Diversity Business Lunch which I attended and where I was able to talk about non-binary gender aspects with those present. Generally, I was pleasantly surprised at how much good will and appreciation were shown to me at all levels. However, the biggest challenge is, and continues to be, plucking up the courage to speak openly to others. Not to mention the IT side, where the only options you have in many areas are male and female.

What advice would you give to intersex people planning to come out?

Nils_Séline “Nica” Schächtele: Take it slowly – small steps are best, so give yourself time. Coming out as an intersex person requires a great deal of care and courage. Things can quickly take a wrong turn. I recommend beginning with people who are not quite so close to you. After a bit of practice, you’ll find it easier to talk to your family and close friends. And get in touch with LGBTIQ allies – they’re open-minded and make very good listeners. Talking to allies will make you feel better and boost your self-confidence.

What are your hopes with regard to the visibility of intersex per­sons in particular and the LGBTIQ Community in general at your company?

Nils_Séline “Nica” Schächtele: Let’s be as courageous as possible. Intersexuality is still a big taboo topic. In many places, we as a society have yet to take a clear stand against hastily begun hormonal treatment or surgery which is not medically necessary. The few who are open about their identity are inundated with letters and requests from all sides. But there are other important topics, too. That’s why I’d like to see many people – in particular many allies – spread the message that the human body doesn’t just develop into a man or a woman and that gender actually covers a broad spectrum. I’d like this to be matched by a more relaxed approach – as if you’re talking about the weather or what you’re going to cook for dinner. I experienced this on Stuttgart’s commuter trains recently and it worked really well. As regards our LGBTIQ Community at Bosch, I hope that many people will join us in the years to come, the proportion of allies will grow steadily, and gender diversity will gain an even higher profile. This applies to intersex, transgender and queer identities topics of any kind.