Jens, a few years ago, your book “The Rainbow Factor” received lots of acclaim from the media as well as from companies and universities. It seemed that many had previously been unaware of the business case. You are once again writing a book about LGBTI*IQ in the workplace. In your view, has anything changed?

Jens Schadendorf: Yes. Though I’d like to say this first: “The Rainbow Factor” is about Germany, with roughly two thirds about German businesses. My new book, for which I’m currently travelling in East Asia, South Africa, North America, Moscow, Rome, Paris and Amsterdam, will be published in German and English next year and exclusively focuses on “global business”. For German-speaking countries, it is indeed true: awareness for the LGBT*IQ business case has increased. However, distinctions should be made: companies have made considerable progress compared to four, five years ago, but they are still at very different levels. For example, just because you fly a rainbow flag above your headquarters for a week or two in June or allow your employees to join a CSD parade in a company t-shirt featuring a rainbow logo doesn’t necessarily mean you’ve understood the opportunities the LGBT*IQ business case offers. Still, both are a good start to improving or even just getting the ball rolling on visibility, awareness and appreciation for LGBT*IQ and the corresponding business case. In this process, globally operating German “corporates” are much more dynamic than they were half a decade ago, even if there are still deficits there. But as they say: Rome wasn’t built in a day either.

For the next step up in development, it would be important to have more actively engaged and out “role models” at the top as well, among other things. I know how it feels – I myself was located initially in the third, then in the second and finally in the first management level below senior management for many years. Out. German LGBT*IQ top dogs are more reluctant in this regard, at least compared to their English-speaking colleagues. I have every sympathy for legitimate career goals and different individual roads to happiness: but that annoys me. Those who – as top LGBT*IQ – have been blessed with many talents and opportunities must learn how to have an impact beyond power, status and money. Otherwise, they stand for the same “failure of the elites” we lament today – often unfairly. What sort of life is it when you know the price of everything and the value of nothing? Does that sound too “moralistic” or “heavy”? Nonsense. You can still celebrate work and life.

PROUT AT WORK is predominantly supported by companies. In 2017, you supported our foundation through a donation as well as through an endowment contribution – thank you so much for that! Why was this important to you? Why do you think it’s important that private individuals also support the goals of PROUT AT WORK financially?

Jens Schadendorf: As a down-to-earth Hamburg native and an economist who was “trained” abroad to be rational, I’m not prone to hyperbole. On the other hand, I’m happy to be inspired. And I think the idea the PROUT AT WORK Foundation stands for is fantastic. It is unparalleled in Germany. I also know that the road to becoming a foundation wasn’t an easy one, so I highly appreciate the fact that it was walked against all odds and the PROUT AT WORK Foundation could be founded in 2013. As a rule, I support any entrepreneurial behaviour that is willing to take risks in order to promote something “meaningful”. Even more so when – as is the case for foundations – it’s about improving “social conditions”. After all, that’s exactly what PROUT AT WORK wants, namely: “that all work environments are open to all people, regardless of their sexual orientation, gender identity, gender expression or sexual characteristics.” At least that’s what it says on the website, and it says something similar in the foundation’s rules.

I am, as I mentioned, gay myself. And I have been, and still am, quite successful professionally, both financially and otherwise, first as an employed book publisher and now as an independent global book expert and author. It may sound old-fashioned, but I don’t care: through my work as an author on LGBT+ business topics, I can give back to a society that has made many things possible for me. And I want to do the same – in a very different way – through my private commitment to the PROUT AT WORK Foundation. Everyone needs to make up their own minds how to live their lives and how to stand up for what’s important to them. But maybe my actions will encourage others to do the same.

What do you see as the role of organisations like PROUT AT WORK?

Jens Schadendorf: It is crucial. After all, activities around LGBT*IQ topics from companies or other institutions are one thing. The other thing, however, is exactly what PROUT AT WORK provides: public relations above the level of organisations, hosting events to dismantle homophobia and discrimination in the workplace, commissioning studies about discrimination and homophobia in everyday work life, publishing guides and informational materials for an appreciative, non-discriminatory work culture and cooperating with foreign associations and organisations that pursue similar goals.

No individual company is capable of getting all of these off the ground. PROUT AT WORK pools and processes current and relevant LGBT+IQ information, builds networks, provides advice, enables mutual learning – as a foundation and thus above and beyond all institutions. “For the greater good” if you will. And at the same time for the benefit of companies and organisations, executives and employees. After all – as studies show –, LGBT*IQ diversity management goes far beyond protecting so-called sexual minorities from discrimination. Above all, it focuses on the economic opportunities and potentials that are enhanced by this protection – for all involved. Underpinning and strengthening the awareness for these interdependencies: that’s what the activities of PROUT AT WORK are about, driven by its initiators and movers and shakers Albert Kehrer and Jean-Luc Vey.

Diversity has long been a topic at large law firms in English-speaking countries. How are your staff responding to the fact that the focus is now being placed on LGBTIQ?

Positively for the most part! Some colleagues question whether it’s actually still necessary to get involved in these issues. – If you’re a heterosexual man, it may be harder to see whether and in what form LGBTs are actually still battling against prejudice and perhaps discrimination or don’t dare to come out simply because they don’t know how their colleagues will react. To be honest, it has long been overdue that we offered a dedicated network for our German LGBT employees in addition to our successful “Ally” diversity programme and thus made another statement in support of openness and diversity. No one should feel that they have to hide their identity. And the advantage for our law firm is obvious: diverse teams are more multi-faceted, more creative and therefore more successful. Besides, in a presentation Jean-Luc recently gave to us, he quoted a study according to which the majority of LGBTs still hide their sexual orientation at work and about a quarter of their energy is wasted on building a construct for the outside world. This is alarming and at the same time encouraging. It’s encouraging because we can obviously further increase our productivity by creating an open environment. That’s a convincing argument even for people who are not affected.

What objectives are you pursuing with the PROUTEMPLOYER cooperation?

Although we have already set up an LGBT network, we see a lot of potential to expand our firm’s work to combat homophobia and transphobia and thus to further improve our corporate culture. We want to send a clear signal both internally and externally. We expect the PROUT EMPLOYER cooperation to give us new impetus and new ideas. As lawyers, we need our networks, and the cooperation creates another network and helps our LGBTs to be even more successful professionally. – And here again: it’s win-win!

What activities are there at Linklaters in terms of LGBTIQ diversity?

We have been championing diversity in our firm for many years. We’ve had established LGBT communities for a long time in London, New York, Tokyo and other locations of our law firm. In Germany, we also want to extend our network for our LGBT employees, which is still quite new there, and establish it as a platform on which colleagues can get updates on current topics, events, news, etc. or which they can simply use to share their experiences. This is particularly helpful for new colleagues who don’t yet know the environment. Interconnection within the Linklaters organisation is equally important. A good example is Hong Kong, where last year the commitment of our colleagues was awarded the Silver Standard of the LGBT+ Index by the Community Business organisation. This makes us the first and so far the only Magic Circle law firm to have been awarded the Silver Standard. That’s what I want to achieve in Germany, too.

You are the diversity sponsor at Linklaters. Why is it a matter close to your heart to support LGBTIQ people?

I have too many friends, even of my generation, who struggle with the issue of coming out and suffer from being different from what they pretend to be. In my view, the legal sector in particular still lags behind the rest of society here. However, each of us can fully develop our potential and talents only if we are accepted and valued by the people around us (both colleagues and clients). I try to play a small part in this through my contribution as diversity partner at Linklaters.

What do you think are the challenges with regard to LGBTIQ diversity in your firm in the coming years?

Our goal is to achieve a corporate culture in which sexual orientation is simply irrelevant because it doesn’t matter whether a colleague etc. is “straight” or LGBT. And “it doesn’t matter” doesn’t mean ignorance, but openness. In my view, the challenge here is to ensure that the discussion which we need for opening up these topics doesn’t cause a backlash from individuals.

Mr Daub, many thanks for your time.

What is the D&I approach of IBM about?

Claudia Brind-Woody: We want everybody to feel welcome to succeed at IBM. If people bring their whole selves to work, they are more productive and they are more positive about the workplace and therefore our clients and shareholders benefit. The statistics of multiple studies show a 30 % productivity reduction, if people are hiding and spending their time afraid to be out at work. Afraid that being who they are is not acceptable. It is good business to make sure that folks are able to be productive at work. We want the top talent from all diversity constituencies. We encourage people to come to IBM and stay with us; we want them to advance because they are doing good work for our clients. Shall it be male or female, gay or straight; being a workplace that welcomes everyone enables us to get the best and brightest folks from all types of diversity.

What was the intent IBM addresses LGBTI?

Claudia Brind-Woody: IBM has a very long history of D&I that goes back into the 1920s. In the 1940, equal pay for equal work for women was established in the US, the first IBM diversity non-discrimination policy was established in 1953. We added sexual orientation to the non-discrimination policy in 1984 and added gender identity and gender expression to that in 2000. We also even added genetic make-up to it which means that you couldn’t discriminate based on your DNA-makeup. We have been very much a leader in diversity, based on the values of our early CEOs Thomas Watson and Thomas Watson jr., where they focused on valuing the individual. That set the tone for the non-dis­ crimination policies. For us, valuing of diversity is different from just having diversity. I believe it is in the valuing of diversity that you get the inclusion. We are diverse. We are a global company, we have different countries and cultures and people in diversity constituencies – old and young, black and white, gay and straight, people with disabilities, people who are multicultural – so we have all kinds of differences. The question is: do you value them? That is where inclusion comes in. Are we making the work place inclusive? Back in 1984, when they were debating about adding sexual orientation to the non-discrimination policy, one of our senior executives asked another senior executive: “Don’t we want to make IBM a place where everyone is welcomed to succeed?” That is the inclusion part. Everyone is welcome to succeed at IBM!

Why does IBM take care for LGBTI?

Claudia Brind-Woody: We have a really big company. It is very difficult to say by adding a LGBTI policy, share prices go up by certain figures or the like. However, we will say is that, IBM prides itself as an innovation company. All the research points to the fact that innovation comes when you have diversity. Diversity of thought comes from diversity of experiences and diversity of background. You could say that diversity of thought creates the innovation. We pride ourselves on our global technology outlook and the innovation that we do at IBM. That really comes from valuing IBMers all over the world. Now, we can also specifically point to the fact that we have a business development team that leverages LGBTI relationships for business. And they generate about 150 million dollars’ worth of business opportunities every year. That is just because of the relationship in the LGBIT business space enables us to close more deals, to have more clients, and to have an affinity with those clients. We have various programs on LGBTI business developments and they help our client teams serve our clients all over the world. We have LGBTI execu-tives leading different parts of the business. My co-chair Fred Balboni leads the IBM-Apple relationships for the entire company and is delivering value every day in that relationship. And he is there because IBM is a good place to work.

What does LGBTI mean on global business?

Claudia Brind-Woody: There are different parts of the world, where it is still illegal to be LGBTI. We want to make sure that it is safe for our employees, first of all. Secondly, we also want to be in countries where we can have business dialogue and leverage our business brand all with other brands, to make a difference in the discussion on LGBTI workplace inclusion. We have a diversity indicator in our human resources system, that allows people to self-select whether they are LBGTI. And we have rolled this out all over the world where it’s legal. There are still some countries where it is illegal to do so, like for instance the Nordics, which is surprising. In places like India, we had almost a thousand people, self-identify as LGBTI. In India it is still illegal to be gay. So, even in countries where they discriminate against LGBTI people, we work to create a climate where our employees know that within IBM, they are not going be discriminated against. They are going to be judged by their work, and how they create benefit for our clients.

What achievements can be reported and measured at IBM since LGBTI has been issued? Would people rather not do business with IBM?

Claudia Brind-Woody: IBM stands for values. Throughout history we have held to those values. When we had discrimination, for example if client did not want to have a black or female sales representative, IBM said, we won’t send you any sales representative; we don’t want you as a client. That is the living of our values. We are proud to live those values.
We have three basic values: 1. Dedication to every client’s success, 2. Innovation that matters for our company and the world. And 3. trust and personal responsibility in all relationships. We are not going to worry about losing business from a client who is going to discriminate against IBMers.

What is the learning of IBM about recognising LGBTI in their D&I approach?

Claudia Brind-Woody: LGBTI is not an easy thing to address and yes, it is easier to talk about women or other minorities. But we experienced the following. A colleague of mine in the UK who was at a MBA recruiting conference for LGBTI MBAs for IBM kept having Asian women stop by the IBM booth throughout the day to get recruiting materials and talk about jobs at IBM. He finally said to one of the Asian women that he didn´t believe that all Asian women he saw that day were lesbians. The woman said: No, but we know that companies who understand and value their LGBTI employees understand and value all the rest of the dimensions of Diversity. They value women, Asians, Hispanics, Blacks and people of other cultures because LGBTI is the key indicator. It is the leading indicator that IBM is good with their Diversity policies.

What is on the LGBTI-agenda of IBM for the future?

Claudia Brind-Woody: Every year, we refresh what we call in the LGBTI community at IBM our “Vital Few.” We bring all our 34 out executives together for a one-day workshop, where we discuss what we think could be the vital areas of work for IBM in the LGBTI community. We look at equal benefits for IBMers all over the world. We look at how we can make sure our transgender benefits go beyond just some of the Western countries. We look at education and leadership development because with the diversity indicator, we can match people who self-identify as LGBTI to our lists of people who are considered to be top talent. We do LGBTI leadership seminars like we do for top talented women or top talented young engineers, just to mention a few. We are bringing that next generation of LGBTI-IBMers to a place where they get to improve their leadership skills. We have various things that we focus on doing. Certainly recruiting top talent is going to be something on our agenda always. We want the bright young talents coming into IBM. We want to be sure to support and develop them. We are always looking to expand our Employee Resource Groups. We are very proud of them. There are 42 LGBTI resource groups throughout the world with 13 chapters in North America, 7 Chapters in Latin America, 15 chapters in Europe, 4 in Asia Pacific including India and chapters in China, Japan, South Africa.

There is always plenty to do in terms of where to go next and there are many ways we want to make sure to be moving in that direction.

We think that D&I is good business. When we talk about the “costs of thinking twice,” we do not want the cost of lack of productivity. We do not want that personal cost of people hiding and not bringing their whole selves to work. There is a productivity cost there. There is a cost of not being able to hire the best and brightest, if you do not have a good workplace climate. There is a cost of cities if you are not innovative. If you think of big cities, which are innovative, which are tolerant such as Silicon Valley or places in Europe, for example. We do not want to pay the cost of being intolerant and not having innovation to make the economy grow.

Do not forget, that some of our clients are LGBTI as well. They should also feel welcome to succeed by doing business with IBM. There are many costs if LGBTI people are not welcomed in your business. If you want to create value for your business, then make sure that you both have and value diversity.